Two of my favorite bloggers, Ally Bean and Parenting is Funny, each in her own spectacular way, brought up a question that has been brewing at the back of my mind. It’s this question, or different aspects of it: how much should you care about others’ opinions?
In his Meditations, Marcus Aurelius gave his opinion on the topic, which will probably have you at hello (to the right).
And if you say that that is not true for us as a people, than look at the lengths we (humans) went to over our history: in medieval England, black teeth were The In Thing, and then we have Barbie-thin waists, codpieces, the list goes on… History is overflowing with examples of how much we seem to care about the impressions others have of us than even our health. No, not all of us. But many.
There’s an interesting experience that Kip Williams had himself, which he describes in the short (less than 2 minutes) video to the left. He was hanging out in the park with his dog, and the frisbee that a couple of guys he did not know were throwing to each other landed next to him. He tossed to frisbee back, but surprisingly, they tossed it back to him. After a few minutes, these complete strangers stopped tossing the frisbee to him. Strangers. Who cares? Apparently we tend to care. He felt, he says, rejected (and conducted fascinating work in this as a result, so silver lining?). But they’re strangers. Why do we care about strangers tossing a frisbee to us or ignoring us? Again: strangers!
Maybe caring a great virtue. We, humans, are inherently social creatures. Going back to prehistoric times, when we lived as gatherers/hunters, even before written language, before agriculture, to survive and to thrive we had to live in groups (Yes, thrive. Did you know that if you survived infancy, your life expectancy in those prehistoric times was into your 70s and 80s?). Being excommunicated from the group was often a death sentence. Caring about others’ opinions and adjusting accordingly can be a matter of survival. There’s a fantastic story (sidebar to the right) about what an interpretation of civilization is. It’s a great strength: our ability to form lasting communities.
But then again, what about the thriving products and even industries that are the modern day implementation of the black teeth, popular in Tudor England, the Barbie-thin waists and the such? Don’t they show that when we look where we put our money, we care about what others think of us?
SO The question to you is: how much should we care about others’ opinions? and, of course, why?
The Endless Weekend 
So you threw a softball….hmmm….it all depends on what the subject is. Should I care what others think about what I wear? No. But should you wear something with vulgar phrasing and expect no one will say anything? Should I wear a long white dress to a wedding as a guest? Should I dress what society deems inappropriate for an occasion, like cut off shorts at a funeral or banquet? The visitor jersey at a sporting event with an intense rivalry? Something that is so short my underwear is exposed? Cleated shoes on astroturf? And this is just on how one chooses to dress. There’s so many variables I don’t think it’s a one size fits all. But there are times when you should care about the opinions of others. We need to coexist.
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See I think it’s as you do LA, we face variable situations all the time and adjust accordingly as expected, or perhaps as needed to help the social situation- maybe more to help ourselves?? I’m just going to throw in here (because I enjoy messing with EW at times and flipping the coin) and ask: SHOULD we care or do we FORCE ourselves to care so that we are not ostracized or wind up dying alone under a bush discarded by our neolithic friends who can’t be bothered to carry us and care for us. Are we thinking of social expectations or simply covering our own butts and doing what’s necessary to survive? I try to define myself in terms of kindness and goodness but what if my genetics are simply pushing me to think of myself first and foremost…
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Yes. There’s so many ways you can look at this.
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It’s a terrific question, Deb. I love where you’re going with caring as kindness and goodness, but I wonder if that’s the norm?
I’m going to use an example LA brought up: the wedding industry. I cited some numbers that I had to look up in response to the great point she made. The average wedding in 2022 was over $29k, average wedding dress cost was $2k in 2023, and the wedding industry revenue in 2023 was over a whopping $70b (not a typo…).
Is that an example of goodness and kindness or of us caring about the opinion of people we rarely see and who we are unlikely to see until the next wedding? Is that an example of caring about ourselves first and foremost or about becoming bridezillas? What’s forcing us to care so much about a single day that we spend way too much money and effort on how it looks rather than on the marriage? I wonder how many marriages are hurt because of crazy weddings?
Why do we care so much about the opinion of … I’m not even sure who we are trying to satisfy with the large wedding ceremonies?
Why do you think?
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Weddings are a hard one to debate so I call unfair! I think they can be anything still, situational to the people involved. Let me puzzle this out- and I do agree the costs are both astronomical and ridiculous…if that’s what you choose.
Some will take the stand that they are being caring to themselves- their lifelong dream of the fairy tale- or maybe the parents lifelong dream. Some will be all about the opinions of others first and foremost and who they can out do. What’s forcing people to make those choices: dreams, longing, impressing others, appearances, social media, deep insecurity issues, family dynamics and yes the opinion of others. How do we know that they are going overboard for the sake of appearances though? Do we really know what they do privately, how much time and energy they’ve spent on working on themselves as a couple, on the future as a family or our WE making assumptions based on our own opinions about million dollar weddings?
Whose philosophy are we going to use to determine who is correct because everyone is going to have their own set of values and opinions. LA just did that post about skewing facts to push a specific belief. Is it sort of the same thing regarding what we present and why? Do we trust those couples honesty about why they go overboard, trust our own opinions or just decide we can’t afford a gift and never RSVP 😉 I suppose I’m now wondering why we, as outsiders feel we have to make judgments about why (and of course we always do) but ultimately isn’t it individual choice (right or wrong) regarding why anyone does what they do?
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Well, what would be the fun in a fair argument? 😛
I hear you about folks taking the stance that they’re doing the big wedding because it’s their lifelong dream, and I would, unfairly, ask, why is it their dream? Do you know that white wedding dresses are a relatively new thing (yes, I’m aware that Anne of Brittany wore a white wedding dress in the end of the 15th century, but that wasn’t a “thing” then), and only became a popular thing during Victorian times. Why? Not unlike the black-teeth story, it became popular as a status symbol. Who could really afford to wear white clothes in those days? Brides were lucky if they even got a new dress for their wedding 🙂 But like you said it was mostly to impress others. After all, they didn’t have Instagram then 😛 Sometimes it was the bride wanting that, almost always it was her family.
And eventually it became a thing. Are we aware of why we’re wearing white dresses? Why we’re willing to spend (no, not specifically your or me) thousands of dollars on a garment we’ll only wear once? I looked up “bridal magazines” and got: Bride Guide Magazine, Today’s Bride, Manhattan Bride, Wedding Bride, Modern Wedding, Conde Nast Brides, Brides, Ultimate Bride, The Wedding Magazine, Bridal Life Style, Perfect Wedding, Real Weddings, My Wedding Day, and I’m stopping here not because there weren’t more magazines in the search results, just because I think the point is made.
Who decided that a diamond engagement is a thing? Long story (https://endlessweekend2019.wordpress.com/2019/10/09/list-of-top-everyday-things-that-originated-in-say-what/) short: De Beers 🙂
Why am I harping on this? Because is it possible that some of do sincerely care about certain things like the size of the diamond in the engagement ring… because we’re cued to care about them. Not all of us and not all things, of course, but many things. Like weddings (vs. marriage) 🙂
And speaking of million dollar weddings, I remember Kim Kardashian’s wedding to Kanye West in Versailles, a place that was built to impress, not to make the King’s life comfortable (though he did want to stay away from Paris, so there was some degree of comfort there). Did you know that they “forgot” to build proper bathroom-like spots in Versailles (it was fixed somewhere along the line), so during Louis XIV’s time the place stunk to high heaven because people “relieved” themselves wherever?
And you’re right: as long as folks don’t adversely impact others, they are free to conduct themselves in the manner they wish. That includes lavish weddings that they cannot always afford, rarely enjoy the enormous stress of planning them, or the pressure during the wedding. If that’s what pleases them, again, as long as it doesn’t negatively impact others, for sure.
But then I wonder, what is the reason for other such cases where we care about a thing tremendously that does not provide us with long term contentment or wellbeing and sometimes backfires? Non-wedding examples are ok, it just struck me when LA wrote that 🙂
I’m truly asking: why?
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Well now I have to ask- (and I might suspect the answer) but what about the whole “virginal bride” concept and the white dress significance? To my brain, your answer is much more plausible.
So with all the examples of famous, important, wealthy folk as sort of the figureheads for which the commoners must strive to imitate are we looking at a question of psychology versus sociology? The question in your last paragraph, back to the why? What if we translate that why back to the concept of survival. Are we looking at an unknown genetic component that has flipped the basic survival idea and warped it so that our brains believe survival is synonymous with money, fame, outdoing Kim and Kanye? Or, as my sociology degree leads me to believe, humans are strongly influenced by environment and the desire to care about “a thing” above all else was taught to us in childhood and is constantly reinforced…or perhaps for some it is a combination of the two and they become Tik Tok influencers, at least until Tik Tok is taken down 🙂
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Since you asked and since I love trivia, for most of history, pure white color was very hard to manufacture and practically impossible to maintain. Even in ancient Roman times, when brides wore white tunics, they were more accurately “off white” since “true” white is so challenging (and this is before the dark ages when we forgot standard Roman practices like sanitation and sewer systems that were planned and engineered, not “streets” 🤪).
There are a bunch of different accounts as to which queen wore a white dress first, most of them are from the 15th century (the firsts). But non-royalty brides just wore their nicest dress, rarely a new one for the wedding, always one that was reworn.
Queen Victoria, who’s widely credited for the white dress, may have worn it to support the lace trade, but accounts vary as to why she did that. She rarely wore white after that. Hollywood is credited in the 20th century for cementing the white wedding dresses in our minds, especially after WWII (not that Grace Kelly’s wedding hurt…).
But it did, mostly, start as the rich wanting to be seen as royalty-like, and the less rich as more rich, etc., etc. etc. 🙃 The white virginal thing is a mystery addon to me, I’ll have to look that one up, as to who “attached” this extra meaning…
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I love the new direction you’re taking it, and your sociology background! I once saw this research that showed how teenagers rebelled throughout the generations, ironically, the researcher showed… by confirming! He showed photos of teenagers in different generations, in each generation pretty much all of them rebelling in the same way: all wearing bell-bottom pants, all of them with the same hair style… Conformity in Rebellion? There should be a good way to say that.
So maybe this is what we are: conformists, especially the most rebellious amongst us? Conform to some expectation to rebel, and then a full generation of rebellious lemmings emerges? Do you think that that’s what we (humans) are?
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I like where you’re going with it, LA, and I think your wedding example is fantastic. According to Zippia, the wedding industry revenue in 2023 was over $70B (billion!), and the average wedding cost is 2022 was over $29,000. The average wedding dress cost was about $2,000 in 2023.
How do you explain that unless people really do care about what others think of them? This is the average over over 2m weddings, and the median is still high at (I found data for 2012) at over $18,000.
Now we can start to calculate what a couple could better use the money on 🙂 If nothing else, a honeymoon. Why spend so much money on a dress you’re likely to only wear once (and then try to inflict it on other family members? :D)? Why spend so much money on a day that most attendees, other than your closest friends and family members, see as a chore?
Yes, we HAVE to care about others. But is it not an example of we put our money where our true feelings are and care too much about things that really shouldn’t matter? (Btw, my wedding pulled the average down 🙂 )
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Great question! I think LA is onto something. We shouldn’t let societal pressures get in the way of who we are and what we wish to do. However, there is nuance and balance and we probably shouldn’t be contrarian simply for the sake of breaking the rules and being different. Maybe the ideal is marching to the beat of our own drums within the constraints of social acceptability, where we don’t care about popularity but are mindful that we don’t harm or offend others with our behaviors.
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Thank you so much, Erin. I think she is, too, but her examples highlight the issue: think about the wedding industry (over $70b in revenue last year), and the average wedding dress cost which was over $2,000 in 2023 (and while I was looking for the numbers, I saw an article about the pros and cons of wearing multiple wedding dresses in your wedding…).
How many times are you likely to wear your wedding dress? (I couldn’t find the data, but I’m assuming the answer is not many…) Why is it worth spending more on it than on most articles of clothing that you are likely to wear multiple times?
Yes, like you said, we must work hard to create a caring society, which means caring about others’ feelings. But whose feelings are going to be hurt by a cheaper wedding dress?
There’s definitely a need for a balance. But I wonder, do we care about the “right” things? In the frenzy of planning a wedding, are we hurting the feelings and bank balance of those we care the most about? The daughter of a good friend recently got married (and I wasn’t offended that I wasn’t invited, I really didn’t want to go… He’s my friend, and I supported him, I never met her, and while I wish her a wondrous marriage, I’m truly ok with not being invited). The dozen or so stories of drama surrounding the wedding he shared with me (some bringing some family members to tears, and not of joy…), the hurt feelings at offensive remarks and actions… The wedding would have been happier with 10 participants, including the bride/groom 🙂
So how do we achieve the balance?
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I like where you’re going, and that you’re drilling so deep. I don’t care about a lot of the things other people care about, though I think it’s because 1) I’m on the spectrum so very rational about everything and 2) don’t use social media and am not trying to impress anyone. However, I think I’m in the minority.
Three recent examples come to mind. My cousin and his wife wanted a very small wedding with only immediate family, but was pressured into 130+ guests and a big to-to. My sister was asking about budgeting and admitted that she can’t run to Target to pick up toiletries without buying a new outfit. And a friend asked for a particular $50 teether that “everyone” has for her 2nd baby (first had no trouble teething). I don’t judge any of them, but I also can’t help but recognize it’s all driven be peer pressure or the desire for peer approval.
Good question regarding balance. I think the closest thing to an answer I can arrive at is to surround ourselves with people whom we respect and whose opinion we trust–our family, deer friends, mentors, and others how want what’s best for us–and hope that they’ll keep us honest with ourselves and help us strive for values of character over outward appearance. At least that’s what I’ve done. I have a tiny network, but any tensions are legitimate concerns that I may be making a impactful mistake as opposed to small social faux pas.
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Thank you, Erin, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate that. Not only because of the compliment, but because this is how I think I learn, and it’s these discussions that help me.
These are 3 excellent examples! I know of a couple of discovered, shortly before they were going to get married, that they were not a good fit. They wanted to part ways. The parents from both sides pressured them into going through with the wedding (invitations were out, etc.), and they got amicably divorced shortly after the wedding, with both parents’ blessing.
Yes, you’re right. Peer pressure is an enormous factor (in the couple-getting-married example, peer pressure the parents felt, who then pressured their kids). And it makes me wonder… Why are there so many examples of peer pressure bringing about bad or risky behavior, and not so many examples of peer pressure creating better, healthier selves?
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I would nominate you as the best question-asker and discussion-driver on WordPress, if there was such a competition. The best conversations take place here!
“Why are there so many examples of peer pressure bringing about bad or risky behavior, and not so many examples of peer pressure creating better, healthier selves?” I wonder why that is. Maybe political correctness and threat of consequences there. For example, with the “big is beautiful” movement, we don’t dare suggest that someone’s health challenges may be due to excess weight for risk of being called a bigot. Perhaps, also, people knowingly make poor decisions and pressure others to make the same decisions to lessen their own guilt or normalize bad behavior.
Now you have me wondering if there’s anything we could do as individuals or a society to promote positive peer pressure… communities in which people support and challenge one another to be better. I suppose niche pay-to-play groups exist, such as gyms, books clubs, or life coaching. I suspect people are generally too guarded to give and receive constructive feedback in their day-to-day lives…
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You honor me, Erin. I’m serious, it’s probably one of the best compliments you could have ever given me. THANK YOU (caps intentional).
I don’t know what the answer is to that, or if it’s just what I’m sensing since it’s easier to remember the negative examples rather than the positive ones (but when was the last time you were peer-pressured into going to the library? :D). It’s another good example you gave. And it makes me wonder: can we really only “handle” extremes? It’s either everyone has to be size 00 or 500 lbs is beautiful?
If that’s the case (our attraction to extremes), then urging people to the golden path, the “positive peer pressure” seems more difficult than ever. And that brings me to a second question I was going to ask you: I once had a mentor, one of the best mentors I’ve had, certainly one of the ones I’ve had the longest, who urged me to get other mentors. He was, he said, concerned that I might be shaped “too much” by his views (which I greatly admired, like you, he was very rational). And I love that you have such a strong support network, it’s a rare and marvelous thing. I wonder, given your last comment about challenging one another to do better, and my mentor’s comment, do you feel you get a diverse enough set of opinions? (And, yes, I know, sometimes some opinions really are noise, or worse…).
And thank you, again, not only for the uplifting compliment, but for helping me grow.
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🥰🥰🥰
Oooh, challenging one another to do better. Hmm. I’m a very curious person, so I’m open to at least listening to most opinions, and try to expose myself to varying perspectives so as not to get locked in or married to any ideas or ideals. That said, unfortunately, I’m rarely challenged, as I’m often more well-informed on the topic or have spent more time thinking about it. I know that sounds kind of arrogant, but I think it’s more a matter of having a rather small social circle. I’d love to be exposed to a more diverse set of opinions, but 1) I’m not particularly social, and 2) all the “intellectual discussion and friendships” meetups have been highly politicized and polarizing, even with the most innocuous topics. I think it’s hard to find areas where were can speak our mind, challenge one another (kindly, fairly, and constructively), which is perhaps why people like you and I are drawn to blogging. The conversations here are far superior to most in real life. Maybe that’s a “me” issue, but I’d love to replicate discussion like this in real life. In the meantime, this is just fantastic.
Also, that mentor sounds like an absolute gem!
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He was. I learned so much from him. And he was open about him being somewhat anti-social. Didn’t detract from his goodness.
In a world where folks seem to gather their information from TikTok and give expert advice while admitting that they know little to nothing about the topic, caring enough to being well-informed is something you should be extremely proud of, and something I respect. Kudos to you ⭐️
I recently caught up with a colleague I used to work closely with for years, and he said something that really struck me as we were discussing certain topics “Our friendship won’t withstand this discussion.” My jaw dropped. After a very awkward silence we moved to a different topic. But I’m saddened that this is where we are, so I think I get where you’re coming from. I’d like to be able to have civil discussions, and even yelling matches and still not have them hurt a friendship?
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It’s all about balance, the ability to keep who you truly are in mind while keeping what they expect from you, if not at bay, at least in perspective. You do you, boo, in the situation you find yourself in. No person is an island unto themself.
Thanks for the shoutout, btw. Much appreciated.
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Like you said, Ally, I did groove on your post, and more than that, I found it inspirational. So it’s only fair to give credit where credit is due: THANK YOU (caps intentional) for the thought-provoking post (I said I’d be thinking about it 🙂 ).
I love the “balance” approach. But like many things, implementing it practically is where the challenge is. The daughter of a friend recently got married. The drama in the wedding (no, I didn’t cause it … I wasn’t there!) came in waves, and the sense of hurt remains over a month later. There are expectations of who needs to be invited to the wedding. It was the daughter of a good friend, who explained to me months in advance why he wasn’t inviting me (I never met his daughter, though that doesn’t diminish our friendship, and he knew I didn’t want to travel…). He also shared on a daily basis the drama that unfolded. In the weeks and days leading to the wedding, at the rehearsal dinner, at the wedding itself, in the reception. There were several relatives that were the source of most of the grief, and they “had to be invited.” He and his wife expected the grief (though not the extent of it).
Why do we invest in weddings (average cost of a wedding last year was over $29,000…) and wedding dresses (average cost $2,000, average number of times the bride will wear it… less than that…) and not in the balance that you mentioned?
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No real answer to why people feel the need to have lavish weddings, but I’d guess some people take the whole queen for a day thing to extremes. Seems sad to me, but what do I know!
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As I was looking for the numbers on what people spend on weddings, I ran into an article detailing the pros and cons of having multiple wedding dresses in a single wedding… It’s one thing if you’re actually going to be the queen one day (as in the wedding of the Prince and Princess of Wales), and then there’s justification in the revenue from televising the event, the merchandise of the event, the tourism the event brings, etc.
But in other cases, my mind is boggled, too. Believe it or not, I know of a couple who realized shortly before the wedding that they weren’t a good fit. But because of how things would look, they went through with the wedding and then got an amicable divorce almost immediately after. Talk about lack of balance you were referring to?
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Wow, now that’s a couple who are a little too clued into external validation. Such a waste, such a fraudulent thing to do…
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To give this sad situation (and perhaps why your post resonated with me so much) some context, she was barely an adult when she first got married, and it was under a lot of pressure from both her parents and her fiancé’s parents. When I met her, she was happily married for the second time, and she remained happily married to him until he passed away during the pandemic.
It’s stories like this, of the two pairs of parents caring so much about “not losing face” and what others think of them, that they will sacrifice their own children’s happiness, that makes me wonder… Do we care about the wrong things?
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Often times, YES!
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Think there’s a remedy for that?
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If the person who is into external validation doesn’t think it’s a problem, then NO there’s no solution for it. 🤷♀️
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That does not bode well given how many folks require external validation, no?
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Good examples with the broken femur and the prehistoric life. We do need to be part of a community or family. We do care what others think of us so we aren’t ostracized. But we shouldn’t try to please others to the extent we lose our sense of self.
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I felt the same way the first time I read it, and also the tenth time… I’m glad you feel the same way!
Yes, I agree with you, we all need to be part of a community, and we need to take measures to make sure that the community remains thriving and we remain in it. But then I wonder about the many examples of how we do lose our sense of self… Take weddings, for example. Why do ordinary people turn into Bridezillas? Why do we care so much that, like you warned us, we lose our sense of self in an attempt to accomplish… I’m not sure what? Why do we care enough about a single day to go to those extremes?
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Peer pressure? Or stress?
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I think there’s a lot of truth there: people ask if your friends jumped off a cliff, would you, too? And it may seem like a ridiculous question, but I wonder…
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Great photo! 😅
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It’s funny. As a sixty+ adult, I’ve mostly stopped caring what people think of me… EXCEPT when it comes to writing. Then I’m completely obsessed with others opinions, and if they aren’t good, I’m crushed. Really trying to work to counter this, and I’m certain I’m going to write about it in the next couple of weeks.
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I love that! There’s an old quote (maybe a paraphrase of Will Rogers?) that goes something like this: at 20 we’re dominated by what others think of us, at 40 we’re worried about what others think of us, and at 60 we realize they were never thinking of us at all 😀
I think this is a terrific example: there’s a balance of getting constructive criticism, of editing, re-editing, re-re-editing, and re-re-re-editing to crease a wondrous piece of writing. But there’s knowing when to ignore them, too.
Ursula Le Guin published a rejection letter for her first book to cheer up (her words) folks who get rejection letters. It called her book The Left Hand of Darkness “unreadable”… You can read it below:
https://www.ursulakleguin.com/a-rejection-letter
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So let me answer Marcus Aurelius (one of my favourites) with other one of my favourites:
“Our concern for the loss of our friends is not always from a sense of their worth, but rather of our own need of them and that we have lost some who had a good opinion of us.” Francois de La Rochefoucauld
In the end, we all want to belong, we want to be valued, especially by “important people”. I have learned that staying true to our values and beliefs we will never have to worry about other people’s opinions.
Perhaps it is the “other’s who should be worried about losing my good opinion of them. LOL!!!
Great question and great discussion.
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You and me both, Rebecca! The more I learn about Marcus Aurelius, the more I admire him, except for one thing, his choice in successor, which made him the last of the Good Emperors… I wonder how such a wise philosopher could fail to recognize the trust so badly in one specific instance?
I was not familiar with La Rochefoucauld’s quote: thank you for sharing it. I re-read it three times (and now I’m going to re-read it a fourth time). Do you remember where it comes from? I would love to read more about it! I think it brings up two truly spectacular points: yes, we need friends more than their “worth” to us. And also, I believe, and you tell me what you think, it brings up a point that we may need to choose are friends wisely so that we care about not losing the right folks, rather than of folks who we may benefit from “losing”?
What do you think?
Thank you for a spectacular point and a splendid quote!
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La Rochefoucauld, also known as François de La Rochefoucauld, was a French author famous for his maxims and memoirs. He lived in the 17th century and is renowned for his work “Maxims,” which offers concise and insightful reflections on human behavior, morality, and society. His writings often delve into themes like self-interest, love, and the complexities of human nature. La Rochefoucauld’s works have left a lasting impact on literature and philosophy, influencing thinkers and writers for centuries.
If you are interested in reading his work, you can find his “Sentences and Moral Maxims in Gutenberg Press!
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/author/5749
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Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU! I’m downloading it now, and hopeful will be wiser once I’ve read it. Truly appreciate it!
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If you’re going to be disrespectful, or hurt someone/thing emotionally or physically, you have to consider what others are going to think. There’s nothing wrong with doing your thing, but it can’t affect others adversely
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What a terrific distinction about when one should and should not care! Tell me if I captured your thought correctly: there’s the freedom to do what you like… as long as you don’t affect others adversely. But to have a thriving, healthy community, one must curtail some of one’s ability to do as one pleases to avoid adverse effect on others. For example, you’re free to take a hammer to your windshield, but not to your neighbor’s windshield, even if you really want to?
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Exactly the path I’m traveling
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I read Ally’s post before, so this is fresh in my mind. When I was younger, I know I worried far too much what others thought of me. I’m not sure if it’s because of age or maturity, but I quit that mindset a long time ago. The only ones whose opinions I care about now are my family and close friends. Otherwise, it’s just a bunch of wasted energy. There hasn’t been a person alive who is universally liked, so why bother?
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There’s a marvelous quote that goes something like this “when you’re 20, you’re dominated by what others think. When you’re 40, you’re worried about what others think. When you’re 60, you realize they were never thinking of you at all” 🙂
You seem to have reached this wise revelation independently!
It’s a great question for many, since you know they do… And idk what the answer is, maybe that’s why I liked the Marcus Aurelius saying so much?
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It was a thoroughly thought-provoking comment you shared with me, I’m grateful for that, and of course I’d give credit where credit is due: 3 cheers and a bow jiu jitsu style to you!
Yes, that dude, Marcus Aurelius, was pretty awesome (other than his choice in his successor, who he magically figured the best for the job was his son, who was not very awesome 🙂 ). Guess it’s a lesson that no one’s perfect?
The frisbee thing is fascinating to me: if the frisbee guys just took the frisbee back and never involved him in the game, there’d be no sense of loss: and yet, he gained a few minutes of joy, and what he ended up getting was just … misery? Yes, being shunned, like you said, does strike at the core of our humanity!
Thanks! I found that story so moving, on the first read and on the 10th one, too 🙂 I think I first learned about our long lifespans (past infancy) in Sapiens (Harari’s book). And, yes, it seems like life wasn’t all bad back then:
– We didn’t work more than 3–4 hours a day, there was no need… Kind of alluring, no? 😀
– We were almost always in great weather (otherwise we’d move ourselves to better weather)
– We had a varied diet (we moved around looking for it 🙂 )
– And, yes, many of the plagues that plague us (forgive me… I couldn’t help myself 🙂 ) resulted from animal husbandry…
Who knew?
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I wish I could remember what comment I left that was so thought-provoking. But I’m shrugging over here. But clearly it was along this topic!
Yes, so weird that things would have been better had the frisbee not been tossed back to the guy. It’s sort of like what someone said to me recently about why do people have dogs as pets when they know they will outlive them. Years of joy, then lots of pain when they die. (I’m refusing to use the Tennyson quote! 😛 )
You told me about Sapiens, and I got it out, but never got to it.
I have so so many books I would like to read. I should see if I can get it as an audiobook. Currently doing Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell. Have we discussed him yet?
I did know about animal husbandry leading to human diseases. We probably learned that from Guns, Germs, and Steel, no? Great book, which I KNOW we’ve discussed before. Have we talked about Quiet, yet? The one about the power of introverts in a world that won’t stop talking. I think that’s the subheading. I feel like we have, but not 100% sure.
And yes, that hunter/gatherer stage doesn’t seem so bad so long as you have either proper footwear or hardy Hobbit feet. 🙂
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It is/was a terrific insight! Your comment in full (part of a longer discussion) :
“Yes, agreed re: apathy. A coworker likes to engage people in twitter, sorry, X, arguments, and I ask why he bothers. One, you’re not going to change anyone’s mind. And two, isn’t ignoring the person a greater insult than responding? Like, they’re not even worth your time arguing with? I think that’s the power of apathy over hate.”
From:
(Sadly, idk how to link directly to a comment 🥀)
It had me thinking and starting to write this post, and what Ally wrote helped me finish it. So thank you. Very much ❣️
I hear you about the Tennyson sentiment, I’m not sure where I stand on it. Though it’s strange to me: I get the abandonment the frisbee person felt, but how is it that he felt worse than if they never tossed to him once? If it’s true that loss aversion is stronger than the potential for gain then Tennyson was trying to fool us in In Memoriam A. H. H.?
I, too, have so many books I would like to read, I decided they’re there to make me feel there’s something great to look forward to, not to feel bad about not getting to them yet 🙃 No, we’ve never talked about Gladwell, is The Tipping Point your favorite book of his?
Right, loved Guns, Steel, and Germs! I forgot about it, must be a sign I need to read it again? No, we’ve not talked about Quiet, I’ve not heard of it, and in this ferociously loud world, where the norm seems that whoever yells the loudest wins, it seems like I should know more about it?
Don’t forget: Hobbit feet are very hairy, be careful with what you wish for 🤣🤣🤣
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Your wilting flower emoji is perfection. And thanks for taking the time and trouble to find the comment!
Re: Tennyson, I’m thinking it cannot be taken as a blanket statement. I think the situation will vary from person to person and situation to situation. I think about great friendships that have come and gone, the loss of which were keenly felt, sometimes to the point of tears. But still, looking back, worth it? Yes. Could some people in different situations, particularly if the pain of loss is some protracted cancer that sucks the emotional life out of a person, like you were my very best friend for a year, then I had to watch you die a painful horrible death that lasted longer than a year–would that have been “worth it”? To the one dying, I’m sure they were incredibly grateful for that friend in their time of need. For the friend being drained through emotional pain–perhaps not.
Still, people love to be loved and needed. Maybe that alone strengthens the worth-itness for the one watching the friend die. So, it’s subjective, I imagine, but also, on the whole, I believe Tennyson is right. I have yet to feel remorse over love. Love is powerful. I would genuinely be interested to hear someone share an instance, if they could, of a time it wasn’t worth it.
Maybe the loss aversion vs potential for gain does not apply when it comes to genuine love. What if love trumps all? Well… ooh, now this could easily start up a whole discussion: sometimes we have to walk away from love. “Follow your heart” can very much be bad advice, like, you’re already married to someone, obvs. Did you watch that movie about Beatrix Potter? She was going to marry someone, but he would be cut-off financially if he married her. A lot of dependents relied on him for care who would then be cut off too. So, though she loved him, and he her, she refused to marry him. Heart-breaking, but doing the right thing trumps love.
Ah, man, this comment will never end at this rate! 😛
David and Goliath is the winning Gladwell so far. I started with Blink and def enjoyed greatly, but I believe he has changed his thinking on some things since then. Still, it was a fascinating read.
Re: Hobbit feet–but if hairy is the norm, wouldn’t clean-shaven feet be what’s considered unattractive???
Sorry, I can’t stop!
I very much appreciate your enlightening and thought-provoking posts, as well as these deep discussions they elicit. Thanks, friend. 🙂
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But but but why would you even try to stop? Nononono! Continue, pretty please with a non wilted rose on top 🙂 (And thanks, a good emoji is like a dark chocolate chip and a piece of chocolate cookie dough in your ice cream, no? :))
I love that question, though I’m not sure I know how to answer it. So, as I learned, I’m trying to use edge cases. Say you love consuming something that’s very bad for you. Is that love for that worth the damage it does to your body worth it? You may argue that that’s not “love.” And I get that, I may have oversimplified it too much in my quest to find the answer.
I haven’t seen that movie, and it does sound heartbreaking. Which begs the question, is duty to those dependents more important than the love Beatrix may have shared with her beloved?
Ever since I learned the supposed ages of Romeo and Juliet (14 and 12), their story lost a lot of its power over me. But are there cases where the cost of love WAS worth it, despite the “trouble” they may have caused? When doing the right thing does NOT trump love?
I’ve never read David and Goliath, so you know what’s the next book I’m picking up, right? 🙂 (I just started reading a fiction book and a non-fiction book, and funnily enough I find myself in the mood to read non-fiction rather than fiction — I finished 2 other non-fiction books since I started reading the fiction one, go figure…).
And, yes, amongst Hobbits, hairy feet may be attractive, and given that they have a deep appreciation for second breakfast (which I have admired since day 1, when I first read the book when I was a wee lass), but I’m not sure how my hubby would feel about it… Imagine his surprise when I’ll ask him later today 😀
Thank YOU, Betsy, really, for stretching my mind in new directions. This would not be possible without you. Thank you. Sincerely.
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“A good emoji is like a dark chocolate chip and a piece of chocolate cookie dough in your ice cream, no?” Oh man, you so get me.
The thing about consuming something bad for you is that it’s probably still fine in moderation, which is perfect really because you appreciate something more when you don’t have it ALL the time and also when you want it but can’t have it.
Which makes me think of what I call the Forbidden Fruit Factor of things–they’re more enticing when you can’t have them because doing so would be bad. How often do people crave something, or a person, only to “get” the person and suddenly lose interest? It sort of proves that the FFF was trumping good sense and true feelings of love. Humans are funny, irrational creatures.
I think in the example of the movie, doing one’s duty trumps love. Roman Holiday is another example. Plus, we know people can fall in love multiple times. Someone else will come along who is suitable in all respects, probably. Hopefully. 🙂 And even if not, someone could at least die knowing they had done the right thing. Whether or not they regret that decision regardless, must be subjective.
Gosh, your Romeo and Juliet paragraph–I don’t know. I have not come across an example where love has trumped doing the right thing. I have a hard time imagining that could be true, TBH. Because the “love” would be selfish if it meant doing what you wanted at the detriment of others whom you should also love, even if in a different way.
Which begs the question: Can bad come from doing the right thing? That’s a hard one because we can never know the full extent of the impact from a person’s actions. The ripple effects will likely hit someone who doesn’t even know the original two involved.
I definitely know good can come from bad. Those examples are easy enough to find. And thank goodness for that!
Okay. Before my head hurts… 😛
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Such excellent questions, quotes and examples.
Much as I hate to say it, I was taught by my mother to be insecure. She was insecure and she passed her own fears on to me with the intention of protecting me. She saw herself as fat, particularly as a child (she wasn’t) and taught me to diet because people wouldn’t like me if I was fat, while at the same time forcing me to eat and using food as a reward.
Over the years I have fought this. I tell myself that of the people I see around me, probably no one notices me. Then I see pictures of overweight people – like the ones that some jerk takes in Walmart and posts online because that’s just so funny. Certainly not the body positivity posts. And I find myself torn between being envious of plus size people wearing shorts or tight fitting formal gowns. And also judging them.
I have tried to break this cycle since I was very young. Why should you care? Society tells you to care. The mean girls tell you to care. The popular boys tell you to care. Hell, your mother tells you to care. I am just grateful that social media did not exist when I was growing up.
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I just started to read the book “How Not to Die.” Even from the few pages I’ve already read, it looks like it’s going to be a good one! The author, Michael Greger, speaks of the difficulties of determining what’s the truth behind the many remedies that are being offered out there. He spends hours and hours and hours keeping up with the latest literature, and clearly has an enormous breadth and depth of knowledge on the topic, and even he says it’s difficult.
He shares that over 60% of the remedies that folks are trying have been essentially shown to not work (and in some cases hurt). And that there are a lot of special interest groups that peddle contradictory advice.
Over the years I think we learned that common sense is not very common and doesn’t make a lot of sense. The extremes we’ll go to, to conform with the current concept of beauty are somewhat alarming, from the black teeth to the Ether Granger-narrow waist to more current ones.
There’s an interesting 4-episode mini series on Netflix titled The Blue Zones (it’s an extended and revised version of the old TED talk by essentially the same name). It talks about how, in certain parts of the world, people manage to regularly live into their 100s HEALTHFULLY. Yes, emphasis on HEALTHFULLY. And they share the commonalities they’ve seen in those places. Those resonate with what I’ve seen Greger suggest so far and have been unglamorous and unchanging.
I wish I knew how to find the “how to care” golden path. That’s why I’m seeking your wisdom.
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I feel like I was responding to an entirely different post! But that’s okay. Interesting thoughts as always.
As for remedies, all you have to do is watch YouTube or tiktok for a while to be overwhelmed with snake oil remedies. If there are any honest ones in the mix they will never be found. As someone with diabetes, I can tell you there have always been rumors of “cures” for diabetes and conspiracy theories about big pharma blocking the cures. They say that we spend so much on our treatments they can’t afford to cure us. Which might be true in the US but not in most of the rest of the world where insulin, for example, is quite affordable. Truth is we cost the health care system a lot of money and I’m more likely to believe the Robin Cook novel from years ago where the insurance companies were quietly killing off patients with diabetes and other chronic illnesses.
The truth is probably like you said about the hunter gatherers living a long life even by our standards. It wasn’t until we started farming and staying in one place that we became dependent on grain crops and less activity.
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If I veered off the topic we were discussing, my apologies, I tend to (too) easily go off on tangents. Just set me in the right direction.
I think it was in Sapiens (by Harari) where I first learned that our life spans (if we survived infancy) was at least as long or longer than it is today! Yes, for several reasons: we tended to “work” maybe 3-4 hours max a day as gatherer/hunters, and the rest of the time was for our enjoyment. Very different from working from dawn to dusk … to the bone 🙂 Since we moved around (both physical activity but also, no permanent settlements), we tended to have a very varied diet, which was great and plentiful (yes, yes, some of us moved to tundra where life was harder…), and if it wasn’t plentiful… we moved. Great weather. Same reasons. Also, many of the plagues that plague us, some to this very day, only emerged once we started animal husbandry.
Interesting research that was done to let us know all of that, no? Had me floored since I was more used to hearing the short lifespans until more modern times.
BTW, if you’re looking for more interesting data about modern time lifespans, Rosling has awesome TED talks!
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How much does public opinion matter? “If one person tells you you’re a horse, they are crazy. If three people tell you you’re a horse, There’s conspiracy afoot. If ten people tell you you’re a horse, it’s time to buy a saddle.”
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What a spectacular quote! If only I had had it in my pocket as the counter-quote to the Marcus Aurelius one when I was writing this post… 🤓
I must ask you, what do you think about it given the Star Trek: Next Generation 4-light episode:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708687/
Do you think Picard should have gone along with the “buying a saddle”/seeing the wrong number of lights as the quote suggests?
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I wasn’t able to watch the video, if that was a link to the video.
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It was a link to IMDB, to the details of the ST:NG episode. Are you familiar with the episode or the series?
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I went on YouTube and saw the ending of the show you mentioned, Four Lights. I watched a lot of the original Star Trek, but not many of the spinoffs. I did see most of the movies, though.
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No worries, the episode was about the captain of the Enterprise in that series, Picard, being captured and tortured. His torturer showed him 4 lights but wanted him to say a different number of lights was shown. The torture was (very brutal) analogy to the the many folks saying “horse” in the quote you shared, and the question I was posing to you is when do you buy a saddle? 🙃
I found your quote very intriguing, that’s why I’m asking so many follow-up questions!
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Ironically, my latest post touches on this too. The short answer: we shouldn’t care at all! But we do, and I suppose that’s just human nature.
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I’m confused by Jetpack. It didn’t post my comment and now my funny pearls of wisdom that I managed to come up with are gone forever. Heartbreak emoji here. Please assume it was one of the funniest responses, along the lines of what you can come up that has me smirking throughout the day.
I do wonder about that: shouldn’t we care? If we truly were oblivious to others’ feelings, would this not be life:
(there’s a video there about what happens when a kind neighbor puts out free lemons and little paper bags to take a few lemons with)
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Jetpack is occasionally cruel like that. Should we care? I dunno…but I do know how much I would appreciate free lemons. Fun to see the biker load up, too!
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We had a neighbor who was kind enough to leave a tub of free lemons. We took a couple and then went back to leave a thank you note in the tub 🙂 We walked, though, no bikes 🙂
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In the words of Mister Rogers: won’t you be my neighbor?
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⭐️❣️⭐️
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I should get college credit for reading your stimulating posts, comments, and exploring all the intriguing trails. I used to care more about the answers. I think I have lost much of my stamina and gather most of my remaining energy for living and not thinking about it so much. Which is funny because I have been labeled as an “over-analyzer!”
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You know, over the years (do I sound old or wise? 🙃), I learned that when in doubt, it’s best to take what was said as a compliment. If it was a compliment, I interpreted it as intended, win! ⭐️ If not, I missed out on an insult, and annoyed the person who tried to deliver the insult, so win-win! ⭐️⭐️
So thank you! 😁
I’m trying to make sense of what I see around me, and I figure that I need all the help I can get, so I air out my questions, hoping for inspiration and revelations. Won’t you help, allow the over-analyzer in you to roam free? 🤓
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Yes, an excellent strategy on assuming the compliment. As for me, I haven’t posted on my Blog in over a month. I would never bother to travel to other sites to read and insult when I could have the fun of doing it in my own posts! However, as you have noticed I am “often misunderstood.” Your curiosity would make you an excellent law professor with your Socratic methods, logic, and pursuit of rational distinctions.
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My thanks, and I shall reapply it here yet again:
I could go with (mis)understanding your comment to be a sarcastic swipe, referring to the quote from Philadelphia, where Tom Hanks’ character asks “What do you call a thousand lawyers chained together at the bottom of the ocean?”
And his lawyer says: “I don’t know.”
So Tom Hanks’s character responds: “A good start.”
And assume that you expanded it to law professors 🤓
But, no! I’ll assume that you have bestowed several high compliments on me:
1) having the ability teach (one of the noblest pursuits, imo),
2) being curious (one of the 4 critical abilities of a fully formed person, I’ll assume you hold every word of my posts close to your bosom and are double complimenting me by referring to that),
3) applying Socratic methods (Socrates is by far one of favorite philosophers, and Aristotle one of my least favorites),
4) being logical AND pursuit of rational distinctions (excellent distinction, Sir Stamper)
Without a hint of sarcasm, I am humbled and most appreciative by your comment, and will walk 2” for the rest of the day (no easy feat given the heat of where we are).
From one misunderstood person to another, my gratitude galore! I will travel to your blog to make sure I haven’t missed a chance to misunderstand during my latest absence!
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I am behind in my posting and responses because I have been binge watching Resident Alien (just started season 2) thanks to you. I assume that like Larry David, you are chosen for the middle seat at dinner parties.
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My cup runneth over today: DOUBLE THANKS to you for the double honor you’ve bestowed upon me:
I’m delighted you like Resident Alien… Wait! I’m assuming… do you? You know us, professional misunderstanders, must ask to be sure…
Huge honor to be a “middler” or even be thought of as being able to carry off the middler’s position! I should have guessed you were a Curb Your Enthusiasm fan, too! Have you seen the whole show?
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Yes, I am enjoying Resident Alien. I am on season 2, episode 6. And I have watched all seasons of Curb Your Enthusiasm.
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